Comments on: Balanda http://anggarrgoon.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/balanda/ Bardi on the Web Sat, 05 Jul 2008 10:43:24 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=MU By: Claire http://anggarrgoon.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/balanda/#comment-16286 Claire Thu, 27 Dec 2007 17:32:07 +0000 http://anggarrgoon.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/balanda/#comment-16286 true, but the markup is on wholesale, and the cost of food in Darwin is already about 25% higher than, say, Canberra. Rent is free (as far as I know, stores don't pay rent to communites), wages are lower for all but the managers (see CDEP point), waste is less because most of these stores get away with selling food past its used-by date, power etc costs are probably higher though. true, but the markup is on wholesale, and the cost of food in Darwin is already about 25% higher than, say, Canberra. Rent is free (as far as I know, stores don’t pay rent to communites), wages are lower for all but the managers (see CDEP point), waste is less because most of these stores get away with selling food past its used-by date, power etc costs are probably higher though.

]]> By: William http://anggarrgoon.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/balanda/#comment-16285 William Thu, 27 Dec 2007 17:20:39 +0000 http://anggarrgoon.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/balanda/#comment-16285 I'd expect a much higher markup for community store food than Darwin-sent supermarket food since there are no additional retailing costs (waste, rent, wages, opportunity cost of holding inventory) for the Darwin-sent food. I’d expect a much higher markup for community store food than Darwin-sent supermarket food since there are no additional retailing costs (waste, rent, wages, opportunity cost of holding inventory) for the Darwin-sent food.

]]> By: Claire http://anggarrgoon.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/balanda/#comment-16284 Claire Thu, 27 Dec 2007 16:43:53 +0000 http://anggarrgoon.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/balanda/#comment-16284 Re the 57%, put it this way. Teachers who order food from supermarkets in Darwin have their boxes delivered on the same transport that the store food comes on, and they don't pay 57% more for it (assuming rough parity between Milinigmbi and the community Colleen is talking about - I haven't been there but WA Kimberley communities tend to have about the same prices as Arnhem Land). The stores also tend to have lower wages costs than town stores, simply because there are CDEP positions for cashiers. I agree, this sort of position is unsustainable, and many communities (former missions and government depots) were never created with economic sustainability in mind in the first place. The missions, on the whole*, didn't encourage it either, in fact most missions may have taught their 'charges' to read and write but the overall system can only be described as dependency assimilation: make 'them' like 'us', but without including crucial knowledge about how to participate in a monetary economy, like, um, handling money. Quarantining welfare payments just adds to that dependency. *or if they did, it was sort of communistic, e.g. work on growing tropical fruit and the profits go to the mission. Re the 57%, put it this way. Teachers who order food from supermarkets in Darwin have their boxes delivered on the same transport that the store food comes on, and they don’t pay 57% more for it (assuming rough parity between Milinigmbi and the community Colleen is talking about - I haven’t been there but WA Kimberley communities tend to have about the same prices as Arnhem Land). The stores also tend to have lower wages costs than town stores, simply because there are CDEP positions for cashiers.

I agree, this sort of position is unsustainable, and many communities (former missions and government depots) were never created with economic sustainability in mind in the first place. The missions, on the whole*, didn’t encourage it either, in fact most missions may have taught their ‘charges’ to read and write but the overall system can only be described as dependency assimilation: make ‘them’ like ‘us’, but without including crucial knowledge about how to participate in a monetary economy, like, um, handling money. Quarantining welfare payments just adds to that dependency.

*or if they did, it was sort of communistic, e.g. work on growing tropical fruit and the profits go to the mission.

]]> By: William http://anggarrgoon.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/balanda/#comment-16283 William Thu, 27 Dec 2007 16:22:28 +0000 http://anggarrgoon.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/balanda/#comment-16283 I'm not sure I see why this is 'disturbing'. It's no doubt expensive to transport food (particularly fresh food) to a store with limited sales volume, and the cost of operating the store has to be spread over fewer items sold. Whether 57% is the right markup is hard to say, of course - it seems high, but without actually checking the store's budget, it's difficult to tell. The only obvious alternative mechanism is direct community control of the store (or direct governmental control), neither of which seems like a big improvement. The accounting would look different, but the end result would be the same - it's costly to run a store in a remote community, and somebody has to pay that cost. Therefore, the only reason things would be 'better off' under such a situation is that more money would for some reason be flowing in (for example, if a government subsidized 'manymak ngatha' prices). (There could also, I guess, be savings if, say, the community decided to buy apples in bulk from Darwin, thereby gaining some economies of scale, if it could force everyone to eat apples somehow.) More generally, I have to wonder what possible long-term solutions there can be for communities economically dependent on welfare as the majority of income. The price of food seems like a relatively small issue relative to the fundamental lack of an economic basis for the existence of many remote communities. (For example, suppose like in the US the right to receive old-age social security payments was a function of your work history - would many remote communities even exist under such a system?) I’m not sure I see why this is ‘disturbing’. It’s no doubt expensive to transport food (particularly fresh food) to a store with limited sales volume, and the cost of operating the store has to be spread over fewer items sold. Whether 57% is the right markup is hard to say, of course - it seems high, but without actually checking the store’s budget, it’s difficult to tell.

The only obvious alternative mechanism is direct community control of the store (or direct governmental control), neither of which seems like a big improvement. The accounting would look different, but the end result would be the same - it’s costly to run a store in a remote community, and somebody has to pay that cost. Therefore, the only reason things would be ‘better off’ under such a situation is that more money would for some reason be flowing in (for example, if a government subsidized ‘manymak ngatha’ prices). (There could also, I guess, be savings if, say, the community decided to buy apples in bulk from Darwin, thereby gaining some economies of scale, if it could force everyone to eat apples somehow.)

More generally, I have to wonder what possible long-term solutions there can be for communities economically dependent on welfare as the majority of income. The price of food seems like a relatively small issue relative to the fundamental lack of an economic basis for the existence of many remote communities. (For example, suppose like in the US the right to receive old-age social security payments was a function of your work history - would many remote communities even exist under such a system?)

]]> By: Colleen http://anggarrgoon.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/balanda/#comment-16245 Colleen Wed, 26 Dec 2007 06:04:03 +0000 http://anggarrgoon.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/balanda/#comment-16245 In case it’s of interest, here is a comment about buying staples from community stores. During 2007 I was with friends at acommunity, about 130Km away from Derby, Western Australia. There was much business being settled so I was asked to go to the store to get some food for lunch. I was handed $20. I got what I thought was reasonable (Bread, tinned meat, tomatoes, butter, milk and some biscuits). I did also add some luxuries like fresh fruit. From my knowledge of prices in Derby I expected the total to come to around $30-$35 and was prepared to ‘chuck in’ for the balance. I was unprepared to the total which was over $60.00. Apart from the initial shock, I was troubled because, as Claire says, the income is mainly welfare of some kind. I wondered how a family could survive if they relied on the community store. Maybe the store operators depend on the people’s ability to still capture ‘bush food’. Back in Derby I did a price comparison with similar goods in Woolworths supermarket and came out with a mark up on Woollies already marked up prices of 57%. What’s more disturbing is that the this particular store is run by a local Aboriginal family. If the Coronial inquest into deaths in the Kimberley is successful in its aim to establish a Royal Commission into Poverty in Australia, let’s hope it looks at situations such as this one. In case it’s of interest, here is a comment about buying staples from community stores. During 2007 I was with friends at acommunity, about 130Km away from Derby, Western Australia. There was much business being settled so I was asked to go to the store to get some food for lunch. I was handed $20. I got what I thought was reasonable (Bread, tinned meat, tomatoes, butter, milk and some biscuits). I did also add some luxuries like fresh fruit. From my knowledge of prices in Derby I expected the total to come to around $30-$35 and was prepared to ‘chuck in’ for the balance. I was unprepared to the total which was over $60.00.

Apart from the initial shock, I was troubled because, as Claire says, the income is mainly welfare of some kind. I wondered how a family could survive if they relied on the community store. Maybe the store operators depend on the people’s ability to still capture ‘bush food’. Back in Derby I did a price comparison with similar goods in Woolworths supermarket and came out with a mark up on Woollies already marked up prices of 57%. What’s more disturbing is that the this particular store is run by a local Aboriginal family. If the Coronial inquest into deaths in the Kimberley is successful in its aim to establish a Royal Commission into Poverty in Australia, let’s hope it looks at situations such as this one.

]]> By: William http://anggarrgoon.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/balanda/#comment-16135 William Thu, 20 Dec 2007 16:21:16 +0000 http://anggarrgoon.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/balanda/#comment-16135 Actually that's extremely relevant to calculating a CPI if you're talking not about different patterns of payment over time but different consumption bundles (more food, less electricity than the average Australian city-dweller whose consumption basket essentially determines the weights associated with different expenditure categories in the CPI). The survey questions are used mostly for this, actually - to determine what people are consuming and what fraction of their expenditure this represents. Prices (and therefore how they change over time) are mostly collected directly from (surveyors checking prices in) stores. The ABS document about the calculation of the CPI is at http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs%40.nsf/mf/6461.0 and makes sure you realize that the Australian CPI is not intended for calculating geographical dispersion in prices. See 5.13-5.14. Actually that’s extremely relevant to calculating a CPI if you’re talking not about different patterns of payment over time but different consumption bundles (more food, less electricity than the average Australian city-dweller whose consumption basket essentially determines the weights associated with different expenditure categories in the CPI).

The survey questions are used mostly for this, actually - to determine what people are consuming and what fraction of their expenditure this represents. Prices (and therefore how they change over time) are mostly collected directly from (surveyors checking prices in) stores.

The ABS document about the calculation of the CPI is at
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs%40.nsf/mf/6461.0
and makes sure you realize that the Australian CPI is not intended for calculating geographical dispersion in prices. See 5.13-5.14.

]]> By: Claire http://anggarrgoon.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/balanda/#comment-16134 Claire Thu, 20 Dec 2007 15:52:10 +0000 http://anggarrgoon.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/balanda/#comment-16134 I found the <a href="http://www.bls.gov/cex/capi/2006/cecapihome.htm" rel="nofollow">American quarterly interview</a> questions for calculating the CPI but the Australian ones seem more difficult to find. We could estimate just using staples. Also, this is not relevant to calculating a CPI but my strong impression is that consumption patterns also differ markedly. For example, electricity in houses is metered and bought in $10 and $20 increments. if the card runs out, getting a new one doesn't seem to be a particularly high priority. I found the American quarterly interview questions for calculating the CPI but the Australian ones seem more difficult to find. We could estimate just using staples. Also, this is not relevant to calculating a CPI but my strong impression is that consumption patterns also differ markedly. For example, electricity in houses is metered and bought in $10 and $20 increments. if the card runs out, getting a new one doesn’t seem to be a particularly high priority.

]]> By: William http://anggarrgoon.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/balanda/#comment-16133 William Thu, 20 Dec 2007 15:06:02 +0000 http://anggarrgoon.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/balanda/#comment-16133 Disposable income = income less taxes. That's extremely easy to calculate if you know income (which you roughly do if it's essentially all 'welfare') and the tax code. Real disposable income = this corrected for a price index. That would be harder to calculate (assuming that the ABS doesn't spend any time in remote communities calculating a CPI), and more interesting. Disposable income = income less taxes. That’s extremely easy to calculate if you know income (which you roughly do if it’s essentially all ‘welfare’) and the tax code. Real disposable income = this corrected for a price index. That would be harder to calculate (assuming that the ABS doesn’t spend any time in remote communities calculating a CPI), and more interesting.

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